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 Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: help with total loss claim |
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Hi, I would like to seek second opinion regarding my total loss van. My van was 2004 silver Honda Odyssey EX with DVD system with 51K miles. It was totaled by Liberty Mutual two weeks ago. I was not at fault.
Liberty Mutual showed me the comparables they found. Only one is still on sale in the market, which is 98K miles. All the others were already historical data and the lowest miles on the comps was 68K. I faxed them the comps I found in the market and did my calculation including mileage adjustment (I used 10 cents per mile; they used 4.5 cents per mile.)
They did further research for 7 more business days and couldn't find any comparable sales in the market. They provided me an offer of $14600 based on NADA. But I have found a similar van on Carmax (2004 Honda Odyssey EX with 52K miles) priced at $15998. They told me 1) Carmax's price is high. Everybody haggles at buying cars. 2) Their vehicle replacement service will find me a similar one around $13000. But I have to settle for $14600 first and then I could talk to that service and get the van. I am uncomfortable with option 2 and unwilling to take the offer. I want to buy the van from Carmax since it is the most comparable. I am not a haggling person and the loss of my van shouldn't be determined by my haggling ability. The rental will be due this Friday. It's been almost a month after the accident.
Should I ask Liberty Mutual to hire an independent vehicle appraiser? How much will it cost? Should I seek legal action? Will it worth more than the $2000 we are short-changed? Any insights will be appreciated. |
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jwu223
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Liberty Mutual will not hire an independent appraiser. But you can. However, LM has pretty much done the leg work in trying to locate comparable vehicles similar to yours to settle the claim with you. If these vehicles cannot be located in your area, and they have to be availible at that price, historical data is all the have to go on. I agree that Carmax is extremely high priced and I personally would not use them to assist with determining an acv. Your in ability to "haggle" is not nor should it be the concern of LM. Based on the data LM has collected, and as you illustrated, a comparable vehicle seems to not really exist. You can hire a lawyer, but that would just be more money out of pocket for you. I just ran an NADA and auto trader search, where I am only coming up with a value of $14150.00. |
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Trench
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Trench, Thanks a lot for the info. But with that offer or the value of $14150 by NADA, I could not buy one that is comparable to the one that I used to own. I will have to settle with the one with more than 20K miles. I know insurance companies use NADA data to their advantage. But according to NC Department of Insurance,
"There are two methods to determine local market value:
1. By using the local market price of a comparable vehicle; or
2. If no comparable vehicle can be located, dollar estimates from at least two qualified dealers within the local market area are normally used."
NADA is not even mentioned here as means of ACV determination. It doesn't reflect the current market value. I am not trading my van for another one. I just want to buy one that is comparable in the market right now to get my life back to normal. |
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jwu223
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But with that offer or the value of $14150 by NADA, I could not buy one that is comparable to the one that I used to own. |
It doesn't matter if you can find a similar vehicle to buy or not. They don't owe you that. They only owe you the actual value of your car before it was destroyed in an accident.
Nobody likes this, but it's just facts. Car insurance is not designed to give you a replacement of your car. It is designed to pay you the cash value of your car. |
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Fishman
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Ditto to what Fishman said. Insurance is designed to put you back in the same position you were before the accident. It would be a different story if your vehicle was in that state, in the current market it clearly is not.
| Quote: | | NADA is not even mentioned here as means of ACV determination. |
Infact it is. But can't be used alone to determine the ACV as you pointed out by the DOI of NC. |
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Trench
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But can't be used alone to determine the ACV as you pointed out by the DOI of NC. |
What all other factors do they take into account?
It seems you're trying to point to some other books related to ACV determination.
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anonymous00
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | What all other factors do they take into account?
It seems you're trying to point to some other books related to ACV determination. |
No it doesn't seem that way at all, I was pointing to other resources. If you read my reply to the authors original post, you would notice that I also did a comparable vehicle search through autotrader in my area. I don't know where he is located in NC, at which point several other varibles can be utilized depending on his market to determine an accurate acv.
The other factors are varibles in the area market. What are comparable vehicle prices in the market from dealers and private sellers? Current market auction values, any upgrades to the vehicle, it's appearance and mechanical conditon can all b used to determine the value of the vehicle. |
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Trench
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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"It doesn't matter if you can find a similar vehicle to buy or not. They don't owe you that. They only owe you the actual value of your car before it was destroyed in an accident.
Nobody likes this, but it's just facts. Car insurance is not designed to give you a replacement of your car. It is designed to pay you the cash value of your car."
Isn't insurance all about indemnity? Why don't they owe me a similar vehicle? If I couldn't buy one that is similar to the one I had before the accident in the market right now and I have to settle with one with higher mileage or older make given the money they offer now, that is not indemnity at all. The cash value of the vehicle should be determined by the current market value. I am more than happy to take a similar replacement van instead of money settlement. |
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jwu223
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Trench,
| Quote: | | Ditto to what Fishman said. Insurance is designed to put you back in the same position you were before the accident. It would be a different story if your vehicle was in that state, in the current market it clearly is not. |
jwu223 is not the "At Fault" driver. And being a Third Party claim should not be bound by anyone's ACV insurance policy limits. The only true comparable found was at Carmax (52K miles). It would seem the insurer has a choice, Pay it or find another that's as close in mileage, overall condition, and options.
And jwu223 was driving a "" 2004 silver Honda Odyssey EX with DVD system with 51K miles"". Not 98,000. Not some Historical shoulda, coulda, wishta those one's could still be purchased for less.
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That's my 2¢ worth for now. ( maybe ± a couple ¢ ) 
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FK
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| It is. It's putting you back in the same position as you were before the accident. Your vehicle was insured for the acv at the time of the accident, minus any deductions-miles, condition etc. Giving you more money for a similar vehicle now is not putting you back in that position you were in before the accident. In other words, knowing that information now, would pay $15998.00 for your vehicle prior to the accident? |
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Trench
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry Fred thats not how that works. |
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Trench
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Trench,
| Quote: | | It is. It's putting you back in the same position as you were before the accident. Your vehicle was insured for the acv at the time of the accident, minus any deductions-miles, condition etc. Giving you more money for a similar vehicle now is not putting you back in that position you were in before the accident. In other words, knowing that information now, would pay $15998.00 for your vehicle prior to the accident? |
What would either of the underlined comments have to do with a third party claim??
Sorry,... Giving jwu223 less than it will cost to replace their vehicle with an equal vehicle IS NOT putting them back in the same position as they were before the accident
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That's my 2¢ worth for now. ( maybe ± a couple ¢ )
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FK
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Your right Fred, it's not. The inability that a vehicle can be purchased for less money from a seller whose price is high is not the responsibilty of the insurance company. Just because a similar vehicle is located and is for sale at x amount dollars, because you can sell it at whatever price, does not mean that both vehicles are valued the same. The price of the replacement vehicle is irrelevant . It's not the responsibility of the insurer to find a vehicle for the owner. It's to pay him the value of the destroyed property, period end of story. |
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Trench
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Trench,
| Quote: | | It's not the responsibility of the insurer to find a vehicle for the owner. It's to pay him the value of the destroyed property, period end of story. |
END of Story..!!?? ¿ ¿ Are you trying to make a short story out of this potential Novel?
jwu223 has already found a replacement on their own. I don't think they are waiting for the insurer.
Since the insurer hasn't found a cheaper "" 2004 silver Honda Odyssey EX with DVD system with 51K miles"". it would appear that the value of the destroyed automobile is that of the one jwu223 found.
Its like this... if the value of Gold was say $800.oo per ounce a year or so ago and an insured ounce was Totaled this year, would that mean the insurer owes last years cost per ounce $800.oo or this years $1000.oo?
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That's my 2¢ worth for now. ( maybe ± a couple ¢ )
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FK
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Fred I am sorry but you are mistaken. No offense but please stop trying to spin this, you are going to confuse the OP. The bottom line is that you are only owed for the property's value at the time of loss. Your analogies are just silly and unrealistic  It's baseless that the vehicle he wants costs more to replace than what his previous property was valued. That is not the puropse of the insurer to provide the owner of the property additional funds to replace something at a higher value just because what he wants is unavailible. This does not matter, but if that vehicle was availible from somewhere other than Carmax, whose to say he couldn't just offer the 14k and they would take it? I can see the insurer counter offering him some more money, but they are not going to give him the farm. |
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Trench
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